21 What are we really talking about?

I think one of the biggest flaws in the web standards movement is that we’ve grouped what should be two separate topics under the same umbrella which has convoluted the discussion. One the one side, we have groups like the W3C overseeing the development of the specifications that make up web standards. A group like the W3C is a good place for this to occur. They have the expertise and influence to get things done. (It’s a shame that they don’t seem to be able to in a timely manner.)

The other, more dynamic side of the web standards discussion are the standards set by the community itself. You can design a site that is standards compliant according to the specifications set forth by the W3C (at least it will validate) but be scoffed at by the standards community. New techniques, such as microformats or unobtrusive javascript, are introduced and adopted by the community on a fairly regular basis. The community is responsible for the education of its members (and clients, such as the case may be). That is why groups such as The WaSP and WSG remain important and relevant. And this is where we, as individuals can make the most difference.

Web standards, as we have defined them as a community, have evolved beyond the specifications set forth by the W3C so much as to almost make the W3C irrelevant. However, we need the W3C, or perhaps a more effective version of the W3C, to “lobby� on our behalf.

posted at 09:12 pm on September 23, 2008 by Carissa Bradley

22 What standards?

I think the first sentence of the article says it all:

“Readers and conference participants know that the more I write and talk about web standards, the more I point out that they really don’t exist.”

These “standards” are in fact recommendations and not standards or binding specifications. Standards are binding contracts which you must adhere to if your tool is going to write. If you miss out a semi-colon in C++ your app won’t even compile. If you forget to close a tag in HTML: so what? The page still renders.

Likewise if Microsoft want to introduce new functionality into C++ they need to come up with another standard (eg C#). If they want a new tag: they just add it into the IE.

I feel that the reason the standards movement feels so irrelevant at times (which it is not) is that the success of the web is to a large part precisely because HTML is not a binding spec, but merely a recommendation. Imagine where the web would be if an HTML page refused to render because of a badly nested tag? It would be even more proprietory than it already is.

posted at 10:29 pm on September 23, 2008 by Robin Massart

23 Remember that open always wins

Molly,

Great article, I love the way you classify and explain your argument, instead of dwelling on over-emotional blame.

Don’t you think, though, that despite the three circles of hell, open always wins? I get the reasoning behind “web standards aren’t”, but isn’t even their modest success to date proof that openness has won against all the unpleasant forces you describe? (Netscape, MS, Flash, etc.)

When I hear stories like your W3C patent threat, I doubt whether the threat would be carried out if someone called their bluff by demonstrating the short-termism of the approach. How embarrassing if word got out that you left the W3C because you didn’t want to let go of some patent? And the same with the proprietary plugins — they’ll get you short-term gains, but they aren’t going to replace HTML.

posted at 10:29 pm on September 23, 2008 by Jonathan Kahn

24 LETS TALK, THINK, READ, ACT, INVENT

The overall rule
For those who forgot probably most important words by Jeffrey Zeldman “Web Standards are the continuum.” It’s not the thing that one does once and bam! Works.

Ignorance leads to closed mind
I know IE6 has major problems. Yes I understand that. But I can honestly say 80% of my problems with it was because of my ignorance about this profession! I didn’t run to my blog and post bad things on bad people from MS. People imagine that they should be able to do whatever they like without an education. This is not possible. And will never happen.

Non private universities are ignoring front-end devs. There is no relevant places that one can be well educated to become a front-end developer. And if there are no places where people get educated, than the profession doesn’t realy exist.

What is the background of this situation?

Artistians think work in ads is humiliating and serious IT thinks we aren’t even programmers.

How many of us keeps the track of all major browser sites, and not only “your browser sites”?

How many noticed IE Compatibility view twist and where is the ground shake? Nobody writes anything about it. ACT, ACT, ACT, download betas and post your feedback to MS.

Culture of conversation
Most time we shout “IE6 you *$%^#” and hope that our cry will be magically carried to vendors. Let’s try to keep it cultural Hmm? I know we are trying to be cool because we are also designers, but nobody will treat you seriously, if you act like 12-year-older.

• Right now I test each page, view, action, tag in 7 browsers:

• IE6, FF2 on virtual machine
• IE7
• FF3
• Safari Win
• Chrome

• Opera

And I’m not posting “*#$%” about browsers on my personal site, each time it gives me headake. By our actions we created milions of web posts about wrong support of web standards in browsers and now everybody ask “Hmmm why people don’t trust us, why they can’t belive it can work”. Cooperation with vendors and understanding they are needed to be there is very very important.

What do we lack
Community right now needs advocacy, needs thinking, needs people talking to other people, needs good, cultural global and regional PR.

posted at 11:06 pm on September 23, 2008 by Michal Furmaniak

25 Perverting the Web, abusing the standards, then bl

I’m not against evolving the Web (both the technology running under the hood and the uses of we could make of this invention).
But then, where is all this evolution leading to?

The Web, as it was thought initially, was a place for sharing scientific documentation. Then, HTML was created for the job.
Now, some groups are rethinking (extending) HTML and other standards, for the sake of what? better web 2.0 apps? flickr/facebook/gmail?

We are complaining because current standards seems not to be good enough for creating the next set of killer websites/web-apps. We complain particularly to IE6 (it must die, and evolution must go on).

But then, we may be abusing the medium for something it wasn’t supposed to be used for.
Yes, it shows how clever we are in creating new experiences over a “boring” medium “thought for scientific documentation”.

But then, all leads, imho, to centralized websites for the sake of entertaining the masses.
Is a GMail/Facebook/Flickr page a document? But then, it seems pretty obvius that a Google Map is a document, but not sure if the Web is the medium to use/enjoy it.

Now, I recall I read somewhere some differences between web 1.0 and web 2.0: “In 1.0, you wrote your websites on your word processor, on 2.0, you write your documents on (a webapp) your browser.”

So now, we are trying to move all our “computer” experiences inside the browser chrome, and we find the medium is not “compatible” with our clever ideas.
Lot of VC start-ups dying (clever ideas dying), ¿another bubble about to explode?.

I’m more worried about the Web (documents, and our private data) being centralized in just a few succeeding “free” websites/webapps (we all have our conspiracy theories).
If GMail/Flickr/Facebook shuts down tonight and forever, we will be blaming them about our data in the “free” cloud (we will be happy about having someone to blame).
If we keep it in our own HDD/paid-host servers, well, that’s another story, and we will have more rights to blame someone.

So, trying to summarize/conclude something from all my loose points: the Web is, imho, being forced/leaded (not sure by which forces) to something it seems unnatural, undefined, non-standard, but that has to live inside the browser. (another conspiracy theory, je).

Sorry for my english.

posted at 02:02 am on September 24, 2008 by Julián Landerreche

26 Today's Youth, Tomorrow's Future

I’ve been reading ALA for about a year and a half now. I’ve learned a lot here, but this article is the first to really pull me in to commenting…

I am young to web design and development and still fairly young to this world. As I’ve recently had to explain why I chose IT in general as an educational, career, and life path, I realize that my whole life I’ve been injecting computers and technology into my veins from the time my parents bought a Tandy 1000 up until now when I am trying to take in the just the basics of so many web technologies not to mention the idea of them having standards (but man am I trying!)

But I look at some of these teenagers and even pre-teens who already know so much (just the other day I saw a 1 and a half year old figure out which button to press on a digital camera to proceed to the next picture!), like because of the generation before them injecting it, it’s now just in their blood and their surrounded by it. Though it may seem scary to think of the MySpace and Facebook generations running things someday, I also see it being a potential benefit to what we are talking about here. We want discussions and decisions to be more open… these kids are growing up continuously connected to an ever-growing community.

I can’t exactly pinpoint why these thoughts came to me after reading this article. Maybe it will spark someone else’s thinking. Just trying to contribute as the author intended… not with blame, but maybe brainstorming.

posted at 03:20 am on September 24, 2008 by Keith Wyland

27 Hurray for Grass(roots)!

Hey, look at some of the great things that have happened. To me, E6 issues are but a mosquito bite compared to broken leg of IE3, or NN4 we were dealing with NOT THAT LONG AGO.

I think webstandards.org helped a lot of progress happen through a strong grasroots effort. Developers are not powerless, especially those developers who are not themselves beholden to businesses who refuse to upgrade from IE6. There is a freedom in independence (and IMO, a corresponding responsibility).

As for the factions — I think it would be nice to focus more on commonality than differences, if at all possible. In olden times, rival groups seeking solutions would work out issues by finding a positive, uplifting, common goal (often completely different than the issues they have been sparring over) and finding ways that they could ALL contribute toward that goal. Or sometimes, they’d just have a meal together.

Growing pains happen to every org, ESPECIALLY on the web. Everything is new here, still… and there is a lot to learn. How about we chill out, stand proud, and cut ourselves and each other some slack.

CHEERS!

posted at 03:54 am on September 24, 2008 by Erika Meyer

28 There's a Fourth Circle of Standards Hell Missing

It’s called Craptacular Open Source Do-All Technologies. The web superstars haven’t noticed yet but stuff like Joomla and Drupal is starting to creep into the classifieds under Web Design and the people making it happen couldn’t care less about web standards.

posted at 05:59 am on September 24, 2008 by Erik Reppen

29 Hell? Problems? Blame?

Holzschlag describes three interesting and informative approaches to Web standards. However, I was baffled by the darkness of the title and conclusion, albeit the title is attention-getting. I can appreciate the ideal of a “Web for all”, but the Web is amorphous by nature and is not all things to all people; that is part of its beauty.

Can the Web really be compared to eternal damnation?

What is Holzschlag’s vision of an interoperable Web? and how does it fall so short to deserve such a gloomy conclusion.

The Web is interoperable by definition: it is a massive exchange of information between persons and machines. It is a success anytime two entities connect over the Internet and communicate effectively via HTTP.

And although the W3C may seem like the boring adults in the room, they should still be considered disruptive and renegade. Just ask your dearest SGML expert.

Is there a Web to fix or is there Web to celebrate? We should celebrate the variety and massive amounts of interchange and humbly accept the ever continuing challenge of creating clear Web responses to all valid Web requests.

-Jammy Pac

posted at 06:11 am on September 24, 2008 by Jammy Pac

30 Put HTML5 in the particle accelerator

CERN invented the web. Now they have used some icredible amounts of money and people to make that «particle accelerator». CERNS other contribution, the web, is way more important and for the hole planet than this thing. Please move all your folks to do that first. I am not underestimating the importance of this basic science work, but the work done by international bodies on our common web is like some of the worst United Nation og EU commities. And thats pretty bad. I think ISO must continue the work started up by w3c. Are there other wayes? Nice article.

posted at 06:54 am on September 24, 2008 by Erland Flaten

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