1 It's worth it

Well, I don’t have as much experience as you guys, but in the past I’ve made few websites using table layouts. In fact I’m really happy that I’ve made them. Now I know how much code I had to write using tables for my layout and I appreciate the new technologies and their advantages more than ever. So I don’t think those designers/coders that haven’t made table layouts are in better position.

posted at 01:42 am on December 20, 2005 by Dimitar Yanev

2 k10k

I get the message and agree but come on, leave k10k out of it. They’ve done more for the promotion of unconventional and inventive design than just about anybody.

Come on.

Come oooon.

posted at 01:52 am on December 20, 2005 by matt salik

3 Grid of Balance

Although I tend to agree with most of Molly’s ideas, I will have to argue the point. Grid systems came about from print-based layouts and for decades designer have used the most optimal way display information and easiest to read. The positives of using grids are also similarly relevant to the web, a very dynamic one at that.

Stepping out of the grid design/approach is not a new one (e.g. David Carson). But I personally find that the more I try to step out of grids the more I feel the need for them. I suppose the only real difference on choosing grid or grid-free designs is really content based.

You carve the design out of the content, as Michelangelo carve his art from each stone differently.

posted at 02:22 am on December 20, 2005 by Benson Low

4 Excellent read - I wish I was able to take that ad

Definitely good advice, but I rarely see any of my off-the-beaten-path designs get past the comp stage. It’s usually best to innovate within a box – that is, make designs intuitive by adopting common trends. Readability and usuability are king because content is king.

As a side note, I’ve recently been helping out a friend starting out with XHTML/CSS. Thanks to things like absolute and float positioning its a lot easier to “think off the grid” these days. He will never know the horror that is 6-layer nested tables.

posted at 03:48 am on December 20, 2005 by Rob Goodlatte

5 A great read

Yay for SOAD lyrics ;-) I immediately put Aerials on and started reading, and what a blast.

The time for innovation truly is now, more than ever. Fortunately, sites like the Zen Garden really boost creativity.

Rob: it’s true that a lot of those “un-grid-like” designs don’t get past the comp stage, but it’s becoming a more common occurance at least, and that’s good.

Would it be good if every site out there suddenly redesigned into something that doesn’t have a grid layout anymore? Quite probably not, because as confining as they can seem, the grids serve their purpose still to aid legibility and navigation. Those are important things as well.

Breaking out of the grid without losing usability in the process is just so much trickier, but with a new generation of designers approaching who never touched table-based layouts, I’m sure we’re bound to see some very good sites do just that.

posted at 04:42 am on December 20, 2005 by Faruk Ateş

6 Thinking outside the rectangle

Thanks, Molly, it’s good to see this subject discussed.

I suppose rectangles in seeming disarray give us the creeps or the delicious chills because of our unconscious attempts to fit them into the grid that’s not there or nearly not there, a visual dissonance.

Even so, the examples you offer of pages that break the grid are still composed of rectangles in various arrangements. The page layouts that really grab my imagination these days are the ones that lean on diagonals and curves. They’re not appropriate to all content, of course, but I love coming to a page that draws my eye not simply down or across or jiggedy-jag in stairsteps but in a graceful spiral section or oblique angle or with some of the fractal complexity of natural shapes. Especially when this is done simply & elegantly with web standards intact, it’s exciting.

posted at 05:19 am on December 20, 2005 by Paul Novitski

7 Thank you, Molly

I heard you hint about this notion that we older web people are relying too much on a table-based structure in June in London, and it inspired me. Since then I’m explaining it a lot, and be assured that this URL will be circulated.

Thinking outside the grid is exactly what CSS are very good at and tables aren’t.

posted at 05:55 am on December 20, 2005 by Stephane Deschamps

8 Hmmmm....

An interesting read, but it seems like a bit of a solution in search of a problem.

Grids have been with us for a long time, not just in web pages but in newspapers, in magazines, in books. Heck, look at medieval manuscripts and you’ll see grids galore. It’s gonna take more than CSS to overturn all that. Nor should it – grids work, and for the majority of us less-than-stellar designers the alternatives don’t. Does nobody else find Molly’s non-grid examples scrappy and confused?

That’s not to say that it isn’t great that CSS empowers us to, ahem, think outside the box. I know there are some talented people out there who will use this freedom to produce some great designs. But we mortals should be careful, just because you can do something, doesn’t mean that you should…

posted at 06:21 am on December 20, 2005 by Chris Hunt

9 Not sure

Where you give examples of “thinking outside the box”, I can’t help but notice that the only one with actual content is completely and utterly unuseable. I believe I read somewhere that the human eye is very good at looking for straight lines and grids – why should we deny it this by trying to be innovatice?

posted at 09:44 am on December 20, 2005 by Leszek Swirski

10 It's not about CSS or Tables

It’s about what most clearly communicates a message in the most readable fashion possible. I find many of the “outside the grid” designs I see to be difficult to read and distracting. Like others have stated, there is good reason why grids are so common.

posted at 09:56 am on December 20, 2005 by Sal Bass

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